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Amaro  
#1 Posted : Saturday, June 15, 2013 11:41:42 AM(UTC)
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Hi to all, and specially to Russ, Brian and GLT.

On doble mono configuration, ONLY when DSD files is playing, the result is mono sound.

In PCM files, the playback is correct.

The problem is the same in two different doble mono configurations. One with original firmware and another with Hifiduino controller.

Both configurations have Amanero adapter and two B3 with imput configuration in the same way like B2. In others words, inputs configuration like Sidecar is used.

Any suggestions or solution?

Many Thanks

Edited by user Saturday, June 15, 2013 5:47:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

LeonvB  
#2 Posted : Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:36:46 PM(UTC)
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Mono sound points to the left/right configuration not being set correctly. Please check the address jumper/register 17 bit 1.
Amaro  
#3 Posted : Saturday, June 15, 2013 5:54:02 PM(UTC)
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Mono sound only happens when DSD files is played.

PCM files, are played correctly.

Jumpers/registers are set correctly.

Can anyone check if the same thing happens to him?
Russ White  
#4 Posted : Sunday, June 16, 2013 1:41:04 AM(UTC)
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Are you using the on-board firmware?
Amaro  
#5 Posted : Sunday, June 16, 2013 9:13:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Russ White Go to Quoted Post
Are you using the on-board firmware?


Yes, one of my friends have doble mono BIII with on-board firmware.

Other friend have doble mono BIII with Hifiduino.

Same result in both cases. DSD playback is in mono. However PCM playback is in stereo.

On my BII (single), no problem.

SCompRacer  
#6 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 1:02:49 AM(UTC)
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Hi Antonio. I have same issue with my dual mono BIII and Amanero USB adapter. I have a Sidecar too. My Amanero has latest firmware, using ASIO Combo384 driver. PCM plays in stereo, R and L channel are phased properly and confirmed with test tracks. I converted R and L and Both test tracks to DSD, and R and L channel ID test tracks play from both speakers.

I am not using on-board firmware.

Edited by user Monday, June 17, 2013 3:34:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

glt  
#7 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 3:42:05 PM(UTC)
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Make sure the inputs are connected like BII and dacs are internally remapped.
A bit more info here: http://hifiduino.wordpre...reo-input-configuration/
Amaro  
#8 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 5:12:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: glt Go to Quoted Post
Make sure the inputs are connected like BII and dacs are internally remapped.
A bit more info here: http://hifiduino.wordpre...reo-input-configuration/


I just checked the input connections and they are correct. Also internally remaped is set properly.



glt  
#9 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 11:43:04 PM(UTC)
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No good ideas...

Seems DSD doesn't respond to "mono" setting. Try swapping the D1/D2 wires in one of the channels (this would mess up PCM) to see how DSD behaves...
Russ White  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:13:33 AM(UTC)
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Mono playback works fine with DSD using the on-board firmware as long as everything is configured correctly.
Russ White  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:16:45 AM(UTC)
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Pictures may help us spot an issue.
SCompRacer  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:21:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: glt Go to Quoted Post
No good ideas...

Seems DSD doesn't respond to "mono" setting. Try swapping the D1/D2 wires in one of the channels (this would mess up PCM) to see how DSD behaves...


I actually made a different ribbon harness today to try something along this line. When I got home from work I tested it. I use a laptop connected to Amanero USB module.

At first, I cut D2 (Right channel DSD) from the Sidecar at the left DAC board; D1 or or DSD left connected. I cut D1 (Left channel DSD) at the right DAC board leaving D2 or DSD right connected. I got DSD files playing from left speaker, but no DSD files playing from right speaker. I tried all Quantizer settings, still no sound from right speaker. I figured no use trying PCM and didn't want to invite any problems.

Next up, I cut D2 (Right channel DSD) on the right channel DAC board and connected it to the D1 input of right DAC board (D1 from Sidecar open, not connected) - and now I have right channel sound playing DSD files. My Left and Right DSD test tracks play from the respective speaker, left from left, right from right, both from both. Highest output and fullest sounding output is when Quantisizer is set to 9. Vocals are dead center, sounds great, too bad sound drops out after 40 seconds or so (might need to try some different settings).

I'm just a dim bulb compared to you guys and only know what I have seen and read, but it seems like dual mono and DSD will be complicated to implement if you want to play SPDIF too. The right DAC board needs the D2 or left channel DSD input connected to D1 to work. Since nothing played connected to D2 on the right DAC board, I see no use in jumpering the D1 input to D2 on either channel DAC board.

Since we are in anti-phase with dual mono, this complicates the internal remapping for DSD, to me anyway. In the picture, you can see the fifth wire in the left DAC board ribbon cut (D2). In the right DAC board ribbon, wire 3 (D1) and wire 5 (D2) are cut and D2 from Sidecar connects to D1 input.

EDIT: I don't use a full width ribbon as it was not needed with my Sidecar application. I power the Sidecar and input board from a separate power supply.

Edited by user Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:55:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Amaro  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:37:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: SCompRacer Go to Quoted Post


At first, I cut D2 (Right channel DSD) from the Sidecar at the left DAC board; D1 or or DSD left connected. I cut D1 (Left channel DSD) at the right DAC board leaving D2 or DSD right connected. I got DSD files playing from left speaker, but no DSD files playing from right speaker. I tried all Quantizer settings, still no sound from right speaker. I figured no use trying PCM and didn't want to invite any problems.

Next up, I cut D2 (Right channel DSD) on the right channel DAC board and connected it to the D1 input of right DAC board (D1 from Sidecar open, not connected) - and now I have right channel sound playing DSD files. My Left and Right DSD test tracks play from the respective speaker, left from left, right from right, both from both. Highest output and fullest sounding output is when Quantisizer is set to 9. Vocals are dead center, sounds great, too bad sound drops out after 40 seconds or so (might need to try some different settings).



Many thanks for your job. But your test do not explain why left channel plays left & right information and vice versa.

I think that one more test is neccesary. Please connect D1 signal to left buffalo inputs D1 and D2, and connect D2 signal to right buffalo inputs D1 and D2. I hope this is correct way to inputs connect.

Thanks again.

Edited by user Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:43:29 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

SCompRacer  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:51:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Amaro Go to Quoted Post


Many thanks for your job. But your test do not explain why left channel plays left & right information and vice versa.

I think that one more test is neccesary. Please connect D1 signal to left buffalo inputs D1 and D2, and connect D2 signal to right buffalo inputs D1 and D2. I hope this is correct way to inputs connect.



I agree further testing is needed, but I am hosting a music meet for 8 or more friends this Saturday June 22. Due to that I am going to curtail further experimentation until after the meet. I need a working DAC and speakers for Saturday and need to get the house ready. ;)

Corpius was kind enough to suggest some mapping changes with code but I am not sure how that will work with the DAC boards in anti-phase.

EDIT: I did test both ribbon cable wire harness for continuity between R and L and Sidecar connectors and there are no opens.

Edited by user Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:21:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Amaro on 6/18/2013(UTC)
Amaro  
#15 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 12:45:17 PM(UTC)
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Hi Russ & Brian.

As you probably know, with Amanero adapter is impossible to make wrong connections on DSD if PCM works well as the both share the same pins.

My solution for Mono DSD playback in Doble (or dual) Mono configurations, is:

1.- For left channel, feed D1 DSD signal to D1 and D2 left Buffalo board connections.

2.- For right channel, feed D2 DSD signal to D1 and D2 right Buffalo board connections.

This solution works properly.

I planing design one board for this task and to provide more I2S inputs. Also will provide galvanic isolation between Amanero USB adapter and Dac.


I'm sad to learn that you don't think this matter deserved further support than a "it works" statement. Not what I'd expect from a product costing almost 1,000$.

Many thanks to SCompRacer, Leonv B and GLT.

Regards
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SCompRacer on 6/30/2013(UTC)
Russ White  
#16 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 9:09:26 PM(UTC)
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I am not sure what you want me to tell you... All I was saying is it works exactly as the ES9018 data sheet says it will work:

I can't change the DAC internals. :)

The datasheet only mentions the mono register in regard to PCM/SPDIF modes - which kinda makes sense since they are normally stereo formats (one data line = 2 channels). For mono DSD they expect you would simply use one DSD data channel (left or right) to both D1 and D2. Though indeed this will not always be simple on the input wiring side of things.

ESS did not make this very easy on people who want both PCM and DSD dual mono at the same time without rerouting inputs. :)

For an advance application like this you are best off getting the datasheet - but even there this information is vague.

I wish I could be more help, but that's just the way the DAC chip is designed to work. Sorry that I did not get the gist of your problem earlier. I had to re-read it a couple times.

If anyone has a suggestion to make it easier to support such a configuration I would would be very open to try it.

Cheers!
Russ

Edited by user Saturday, June 29, 2013 10:41:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

SCompRacer  
#17 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:44:56 AM(UTC)
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It's just frustrating when you learn something like this after making the investment. I know, welcome to DIY...where ignorance can cost you.d'oh! My level of thinking was DSD played in stereo with one DAC board so it should play in stereo with two. I wanted a fully featured dual mono DAC that would play all the formats in stereo and can't have it now without some inventive fix that adds even more complexity. I could have stayed with a single BIII with smaller chassis (IMO the dual mono BIII sounds better but not twice as better than a single) [note: intentional use of 'twice as better']. At least this issue is out there now and folks can make a better informed decison before building a dual mono BIII.

Amaro, I appreciate you adding what you learned. I've been too busy with other things to experiment further.

Edited by user Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:49:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#18 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 12:22:58 PM(UTC)
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You can already (pretty simply) use an OTTO-II to switch between PCM/DSD for dual mono. You could use a controller (To read the PCM/DSD register on the DAC) or the source (if it indicates DSD) to switch the OTTO-II. If no such signal exists you can use a simple switch. Since only two signals are switched (D1 and D2) you need use only one OTTO-II.

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/control/otto.aspx

Edited by user Sunday, June 30, 2013 12:45:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Amaro  
#19 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 8:26:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Russ White Go to Quoted Post
You can already (pretty simply) use an OTTO-II to switch between PCM/DSD for dual mono. You could use a controller (To read the PCM/DSD register on the DAC) or the source (if it indicates DSD) to switch the OTTO-II. If no such signal exists you can use a simple switch. Since only two signals are switched (D1 and D2) you need use only one OTTO-II.

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/control/otto.aspx


Hi Russ.

Two questions about OTTO.

Does the OTTO add any signal propagation delay?

If it does and only D1/D2 in DSD mode or LRCK/DATA in PCM mode get delayed, would it affect the final result in anyway?

Regards


Russ White  
#20 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 9:33:30 PM(UTC)
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Around 4-5ns delay will be injected, but it will be constant, not noise.

And in this situation that delay will not cause any harm at all because it is not noise, but is entirely deterministic/consistent and very far below the hold period of the clock signal. If phase noise were injected, then I would not propose it.

You can use this technique with no fear for both PCM and DSD. :)

I tested this out this afternoon, and found it worked well as expected.

Edited by user Sunday, June 30, 2013 9:37:15 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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