Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Login
B-III: Multi-Chanel with Multi-Source
Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Previous Topic Next Topic
ccclapp  
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:17:05 AM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
Hi Russ and others

Ive completed soldering for 8-ch b3 exaU2I config. As I prepare for switches control and housing I have a few questions:

1a). What parts do I need to add spdif, EAS, optical in addition to my existing exaU2I? Is it just the sidecar and 1bit switch ? Please clarify
1b). Is there IR / rs232 / ip remote control available for switching the above (in addition to a front panel knob)?
1c) in thinking about this, I'm wondering in a m-ch config, how do I determine/control which ch an input goes to, or does it always have to be ch 1-2? Could I have a 2nd selector that selects among the 4 pair of output channels the selected input goes to??
1d) am I limited to 4 inputs, including the exa card, or can I have more than one sidecar, or whatever. If I can expand, are there selection switches with more than 4 positions?

2a) if possible I'd like a master volume AND separate per channel/pair volume. This could be multiple knobs but also with master. In a perfect world this could allow me so set 1 or more channels to a given knob so I could change a speaker in a surround config, and/or control 1-2 remote zones ( bed office etc)
2b) here again is IR / rs232 / ip remote control available?

Thanks

Edited by user Monday, April 23, 2012 10:28:47 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

--Caleb
Back to top

Wanna join the discussion?! Login to your Twisted Pear Audio Support forum accountor Register a new forum account.
Back to top  
LeonvB  
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:12:52 AM(UTC)
LeonvB

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/23/2010(UTC)
Posts: 708
Location: Netherlands

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 48 time(s) in 45 post(s)
1a The sidecar is stereo only. You can't switch between an 8 channel source and stereo with that setup.
1d I suggest using relays to create a custom multi-channel switching solution.

2a Use AC2 when it's available or an Arduino based setup. See glt's site for the latter: http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/
2b IR: yes.
Back to top
ccclapp  
#3 Posted : Sunday, April 15, 2012 2:08:30 PM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
Hi Leon Thanks for the help!

1a: To be sure I understand, are you saying if I use the exaU2I (or any m-ch source) on my 8-ch BIII, I am limited only to that single source and cannot switch to any other inputs (stereo or otherwise) e.g. S/PDIF, AES, etc? Please confirm

2a I don't know what the AC2 is. Is this a forthcoming TPA device? If so, any idea of its time frame? (I will also look at the Arduino info)

Thanks very much!!
--Caleb
Back to top
LeonvB  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 16, 2012 10:32:23 AM(UTC)
LeonvB

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/23/2010(UTC)
Posts: 708
Location: Netherlands

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 48 time(s) in 45 post(s)
1a: No, if you read it again I'm saying the Sidecar will not be your solution. You need to create a switching module with more relays as Sidecar is limited to stereo.
2a: Yes, and no. It's supposed to be "ready" for quite some time but Brian seems way to busy to create kits.
Back to top
ccclapp  
#5 Posted : Monday, April 16, 2012 5:21:45 PM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
LeonvB wrote:
1a: No, if you read it again I'm saying the Sidecar will not be your solution. You need to create a switching module with more relays as Sidecar is limited to stereo.


Thanks again. Im new at this

1a: Are you able to point me in the right direction to figure what I need to build such a switching module?

Thanks



--Caleb
Back to top
LeonvB  
#6 Posted : Monday, April 16, 2012 10:11:35 PM(UTC)
LeonvB

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/23/2010(UTC)
Posts: 708
Location: Netherlands

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 48 time(s) in 45 post(s)
You basicly need a Sidecar with 3 more relays, for the lines D3-D5.
Back to top
ccclapp  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:38:45 AM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
Thanks for clarifying
--Caleb
Back to top
ccclapp  
#8 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:04:30 PM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
Hi again Leon and thanks for your patience!

last night I got my 8-ch B-III / exaU2I playing sound!! Now I want to finalize the additional inputs.

Would you please tell me exactly what to order, I'm pretty green!

In addition to the 8-ch via exa card, Id like to be able to switch to 2-ch for:

--1 or 2 x S/PDIF
--1 or 2 x Optical
--1 x EAS

You said "You basicly need a Sidecar with 3 more relays, for the lines D3-D5"


I've connected the exa card onto the DIN connector as follows:

B-III *** EXA

-DCK *** DCK
-D1 *** L/R
-D2 *** ch 1-2
-D3 *** ch 3-4
-D4 *** ch 5-6
-D5 *** ch 7-8

This leaves D6, D7, D8 available on the B-III

QUESTIONS:

1) I don't see the sidecar on the TPA site anymore. Is it listed under a different name?

2) If I read correctly, your Integration Guide says the sidecar cannot be used with multi-ch USB (or maybe it is saying m-ch USB is ok but only stereo S/PDIF, which is fine) Please clarify:

"This [SIDECAR] module is plugged between the S/PDIF-4 Input Board and the BIII,
and switches between DSD or PCM (I2S) and the 4 S/PDIF inputs. It only
supports stereo DSD and PCM signals, so no multi-channel input. But it’s
an easy way to add the USB receiver or another module which requires
I2S output and still be able to use up to 4 S/PDIF inputs."

3) Would I also get the S/PDIF-4 Input Board?

4) If I don't need the S/PDIF-4 Input Board, can I buy the input selection switch to go with the sidecar?

5) Specifically what products are the three relays you refer to: ""You basicly need a Sidecar with 3 more relays, for the lines D3-D5"

6) Based on my EXA/B-III mapping above, is it D6-D8, not D3-D5, I connect the side car to?


Sorry for this level of specificity in my questions, but unless I know exactly what to buy and where to put it, I'm lost.

Thanks Leon!!
--Caleb
Back to top
LeonvB  
#9 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:08:32 PM(UTC)
LeonvB

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/23/2010(UTC)
Posts: 708
Location: Netherlands

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 48 time(s) in 45 post(s)
1. It's listed at the bottom of the page: http://www.twistedpearau...com/digital/buffalo.aspx
2. If you look at the Sidecar and then at your connection for the Exa you'll notice a few things:
- Sidecar only has 3 relays.
- Sidecar only has 4 input lines for PCM.
This amount is to low to support multi-channel I2S. You need to design a Sidecar-like module with more inputs and more relays, so you can add the lines D3-D5 to the output.
3. If you make your module drop-in compatible: yes.
4. Yes, see the BIII product page.
5. See 2.
6. No.
Back to top
ccclapp  
#10 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:42:50 PM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
Thanks Leon

Im sure you are 100% clear to more experienced users, but for me, abbreviated answers are hard to follow and lead to more questions until I understand (sorry to be dumb):

1) I see the sidecar now, thanks

2) Are you saying TPA does not make/sell any combination of parts that enable me to connect 8-ch USB AND any S/PDIF, AES etc 2-ch input?
-2a) If TPA has such parts/devices, which are they?
-2b) If no TPA parts/devices, are you able to show me parts/devices made by others to make it work?
-2c) If not a or b, above, practically speaking is the conclusion the B-III cannot be used for m-ch plus s/pdif in any (practical) configuration? NOTE: whenever I ask this in this thread yu seem to say it CAN be done, but when I ask how, I never understand your answer. It would be great if you would be detailed and tell me what products I buy and from whom to do it...THANKS!!

3, 4, 5, 6) These would be covered in your reply to #2

I don't mean to burden you with this. If I shouldn't ask you, is there a way for me to call Russ/Brian, having spent well over $1k understanding m-ch, m-source would work using TPA components?

THANKS, THANKS!!

--Caleb
Back to top
Indigo  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2012 9:27:52 AM(UTC)
Indigo

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/1/2011(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Italia
Hi Caleb,
it seems you are little bit lost.....
well, TPA BIII has been designed to handle two channel OR multichannel setup.
If you go with 2CH, you can then use some accessories that TPA released such sidecar or spdif MUX.
if you go with multichannel you are on your own on finding a source (like the ESA) and an input selector
I mean that if you want to switch from 2CH to MultiCH you must design a switching board to modify the signal routing and source.
There is no any device ready to buy that can solve your problem.
the schematics on TPA website can help you a lot
Back to top
ccclapp  
#12 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2012 9:38:17 AM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
Hi indigo

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I certainly am at least "a little lost" :-(

Your reply confirms my suspicion, that I cannot do m- ch USB AND spfif, etc using TPA components (even if using the exa card for the m-ch USB)

Now the question becomes: how does a less experienced DIYer figure out how to find/make the required non-TPA relay/controller/add-on. Are you able to show me info on the required product/proceedure to add addition sources to a m-ch biii?

Thanks for your effort!!
--Caleb
Back to top
LeonvB  
#13 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2012 10:14:00 AM(UTC)
LeonvB

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/23/2010(UTC)
Posts: 708
Location: Netherlands

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 48 time(s) in 45 post(s)
ccclapp wrote:

2) Are you saying TPA does not make/sell any combination of parts that enable me to connect 8-ch USB AND any S/PDIF, AES etc 2-ch input?
-2a) If TPA has such parts/devices, which are they?
-2b) If no TPA parts/devices, are you able to show me parts/devices made by others to make it work?
-2c) If not a or b, above, practically speaking is the conclusion the B-III cannot be used for m-ch plus s/pdif in any (practical) configuration? NOTE: whenever I ask this in this thread yu seem to say it CAN be done, but when I ask how, I never understand your answer. It would be great if you would be detailed and tell me what products I buy and from whom to do it...THANKS!!

Sorry, your thread didn't pop up on the radar anymore so I thought things were clear.
2. Correct. Please beware that this is also a transport problem: S/PDIF is limited to stereo, so for multi-channel setups you have DSD and I2S left as interface options, neither of which is a standard interface for consumer electronics.
2b. To my knowledge, there are no ready to use products that allow you to switch between multichannel I2S and S/PDIF for the B3.
2c. Sure it can be done, but it'll take an extended Sidecar. See "Connecting sources directly to the DAC board" in the integration guide. If you then look at the Sidecar: it offers 4 input lines, one of wich is GND. This leaves 1 line for the bit clock, and 2 lines for data. With I2S this leaves you 1 line for the word clock, and 1 line for channel 1 and 2. With DSD you get 2 lines for 2 channels. So you need to use more relays to be able to switch more lines if you want to expand it to 8 channels. Since there is no extended Sidecar, you indeed need to create one. But I can't help you with that.
Back to top
ccclapp  
#14 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2012 10:26:57 AM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
LeonvB wrote:
ccclapp wrote:

-2c) If not a or b, above, practically speaking is the conclusion the B-III cannot be used for m-ch plus s/pdif in any (practical) configuration? NOTE: whenever I ask this in this thread yu seem to say it CAN be done, but when I ask how, I never understand your answer. It would be great if you would be detailed and tell me what products I buy and from whom to do it...THANKS!!


2c. Sure it can be done, but it'll take an extended Sidecar. See "Connecting sources directly to the DAC board" in the integration guide. If you then look at the Sidecar: it offers 4 input lines, one of wich is GND. This leaves 1 line for the bit clock, and 2 lines for data. With I2S this leaves you 1 line for the word clock, and 1 line for channel 1 and 2. With DSD you get 2 lines for 2 channels. So you need to use more relays to be able to switch more lines if you want to expand it to 8 channels. Since there is no extended Sidecar, you indeed need to create one. But I can't help you with that.


Thanks leon!

...sounds like I'm on my own, lost in the DIY wilderness. I do appreciate the efforts you made to help. Thanks very much!

Does anyone else have any guidance on this? I expect I'm not the only person wanting multi-ch, m-source input on a b-iii

Thanks
--Caleb
Back to top
Indigo  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:32:52 AM(UTC)
Indigo

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/1/2011(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Italia
You can make a new sidecar-like board so that you can switch between I2S multi channel and SPDIF MUX.
something like this.
This is just an example. It must be completed with correct signal routing to the BIII.
You also need a controller like Hifiduino.
Indigo attached the following image(s):
switch copia.jpg (63kb) downloaded 110 time(s).

You cannot view/download attachments. Try to login or register.
Back to top
ccclapp  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:18:28 AM(UTC)
ccclapp

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/18/2012(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Gloucester, MA
Hi Indigo. Thanks for the illustration, I greatly appreciate your effort!!

Ive started to read about the Hifiduino (but am still a bit fuzzy on I/O etc). I was thinking it might be possible to connect both the EXAu2i and Spdif etc sources directly to the Arduino and use it to switch between those inputs and send the desired input to the B-III (as m-ch from USB EXA card and 2-CH from others). However, I may not understand the Arduino's input limits/config. It seems you are saying that wont work and I need to create a proprietary module (an expanded sidecar). That being the case, could you show the basic signal path between the various components (in concept), e.g:

SOURCE A (M-CH USB): USB -> EXAu2i (i2s out: dvcc, gnd, dck, D1.2, D3.4, D5.6, D7.8) -> (i2s in: dck, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5) DIY Sidecar (i2s out dck, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5) -> (i2s in ports dck, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5) Arduino (i2s out ports dck, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5) -> (i2s on DIN input ports dck, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5) B-III -> IVY 1, 2, 3, 4 -> Amp/Sp...

SOURCE B (2-CH S/PDIF): S/PDIF Source -> (???)DIY Sidecar (i2s out) -> (i2s in ports Dx, Dy, Dz..) Arduino (i2s out ports Dx, Dy, Dz..) -> (i2s on DIN input ports dck, D1, D2) B-III -> IVY 1, 2, 3, 4 -> Amp/Sp ...

SOURCE C (2-CH AES): AES Source -> (???)DIY Sidecar (i2s out) -> (i2s in ports Dx, Dy, Dz..) Arduino (i2s out ports Dx, Dy, Dz..) -> (i2s on DIN input ports dck, D1, D2) B-III -> IVY 1, 2, 3, 4 -> Amp/Sp...

EVEN IF YOUR DON'T LIST THE SPECIFIC I2S PINS, HAVING THE I/O PATH TO/FROM/TO THE COMPONENTS WOULD BE A BIG HELP.

I'm just trying to understand enough to then investigate your basic mapping and then review with an engineer who's helping me get started in DIY.

Thanks again!

Edited by user Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:46:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

--Caleb
Back to top
glt  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:51:45 PM(UTC)
glt

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 11/9/2007(UTC)
Posts: 453
Location: usa
You can't connect the inputs/outputs to Arduino. Arduino is just a microprocessor. You can use Arduino to operate a relay and to do other things like access/program the internal registers of the DAC.
Back to top
BLOG
DKL  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:11:52 AM(UTC)
DKL

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 5/4/2010(UTC)
Posts: 16
Seeking help!! About Silicon Image SIL9030CTU pin layout.Thanks
Back to top
Indigo  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:45:23 AM(UTC)
Indigo

Rank: Member

Groups: Member
Joined: 3/1/2011(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Italia
Caleb, your project is not that easy to implement.
as you know, BIII can be used as two channel DAC or as multichannel DAC.
In order to switch between these two mode, you must change some internal register and this can be done with the supplied firmware and the dip switch on the BIII board, or you can use an external controller like Hifiduino.
the external controller solution is the only one that can solve your problem for switching from 2CH to MCH flawlessly.

you should then work with input selector. this can be made with a sidecar-like board.
I'm a dual mono BII owner, I don't have a BIII, so my help could be very limited to what I can understand reading the BIII documentation.
I suggest you let your engineer friend read the Leonvb BIII integration guide and then post some specific question
The sidecar-like draft I posted above, is just a starting point and shouldn't be difficult to develop it.
I can try to complete it a bit...
Back to top
Rss Feed  Atom Feed
Users browsing this topic
GuestUser (5)
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Youtube
Copyright © Twisted Pear Audio