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SwimDiver  
#1 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:57:10 PM(UTC)
SwimDiver

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I’m stumped. My Buffalo III DAC is sensitive to EMI. When I first built the DAC, it dropped lock a lot. I changed the internal connections to the S/PDIF board to coax and that improved things dramatically but it still drops lock occasionally in response to electrical events like turning on a light. Other than this problem, the sound is great. Here are the symptoms, my configuration and what I've tried so far. Any ideas?

Symptoms: The lock light goes off and the music stops for about a second. The drops are associated with external electrical events like turning lights on and off. I can consistently reproduce the problem (cause the DAC to lose lock) by turning on or turning off the kitchen light switch that controls a bank of T8 fluorescent fixtures fed by electronic ballasts. Other switches to other electrical loads are less likely to cause a drop. The drops occur with all of my sources but seem less likely to occur when sources are connected by TOSLINK. Drops are more likely to occur when a non-active coax is connected to the DAC but not connected to a source. None of my other electronics in the house has ever had an EMI problem.

Configuration:
BIII with 4-channel S/PDIF input module, stereo
One TOSLINK module connected to S/PDIF input 4
Legatto I/V Stage
Placid HD PS, Vout=5.25v, total current=500ma, shunt current=50ma (measured warm)
Placid HD BiPolar PS, Vout=+/-14.8v, total current=255ma each, shunt current=50ma each (measured warm)
SW1: all switches in the off position
SW2: all switches in the off position except SW2:8 which is in the on position
Power to the stereo cabinet is on a dedicated circuit using 12 gauge wire, home run to the service panel.
The enclosure is grounded to mains ground but not to the buffalo or power supply boards
3 sources, a Sony CD player, Squeezebox Duet and a U-Verse TV box

Key things I tried:
1) I tried removing all internal coax from the S/PDIF board and hardwired one coax from the CD digital coax output direct to one S/PDIF board input (eliminating all DAC jacks and internal coax.) I also tried this direct connection to the Squeezebox. There was no change with either source; with either one, I could consistently cause drops with the kitchen light switch.
2) I added a line filter (Qualtek Q467-ND Power Line EMI Filter). There was no change; I could consistently cause drops with the kitchen light switch.
3) I connected the Buffalo circuit ground to the mains/chassis ground. There was no change; I could consistently cause drops with the kitchen light switch.
4) I replaced the kitchen light switch with a high quality one and replaced all the bulbs. (I wondered why this particular load consistently causes the drops.) There was no change.
5) I tried increasing the shunt current on the 5v supply to 60ma. There was no change; I could consistently cause drops with the kitchen light switch.

Any idea what could cause this behavior? What should I try next?
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Russ White  
#2 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:05:15 PM(UTC)
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This is usually a case of DC on the mains. Toroidal transformers tend to pass switching spikes which can cause a large ground bounce. It is that bounce which causes the unlock.

Read this post and the several after it:

http://www.diyaudio.com/...-ii-167.html#post2764770

The best cure is to try to find the cause of the DC and remove or isolate it.
SwimDiver  
#3 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:58:54 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Russ, I'll check it out.
SwimDiver  
#4 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2011 10:27:58 PM(UTC)
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Russ,

Thanks for the link.

In one of your posts in the link you provided, you said "You have to be very careful with the grounding scheme and with potential ground bounce related to switching on and off of devices. Errors that many decoders simply pass along will cause the ES9018 to re-lock." Is there anything I should check with regards to the "grounding scheme"? Are you referring to grounding within the DAC or outside of it?

In another post you said "The core problem in these is generally related to mains wiring and sometimes DC on the mains. I have not experienced any problem myself for quite some time, because I found the root of my own problem which was a load on the mains that was creating DC. When I eliminated the mains DC I experienced no more issues." What did your problem load turn out to be? How would I verify DC on the mains is my issue? How do I find the culprit load that is creating the DC?

Is there any way to filter out the problem at the DAC?
SwimDiver  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2011 10:37:38 AM(UTC)
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Also, does it make any sense to run the mains power through a standard 1:1 isolation transformer or would the DC get through?
LeonvB  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2011 12:06:04 PM(UTC)
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There are several solutions, just to name one: http://sound.westhost.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htm
SwimDiver  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, November 23, 2011 2:22:14 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Leon. I stumbled onto this site last night. I'll give it a try.
SwimDiver  
#8 Posted : Friday, November 25, 2011 12:40:58 PM(UTC)
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I'm no longer thinking my problem is a "DC on mains" problem. Here's why.

Before building a DC blocker circuit, I decided to try something. I happen to have a 12v DC to 120v AC inverter for use in car.

So.. I ran an extension cord to the car and plugged the DAC into the inverter. Worked ok. I then tried switching on/off the kitchen light and the DAC dropped lock like it did when plugged into the mains.

With the DAC plugged into the inverter running on the car battery, it is completely isolated from mains power. I'm thinking that eliminates mains DC as a problem. Agree? If so, what's left?
miero  
#9 Posted : Friday, November 25, 2011 1:42:58 PM(UTC)
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You wrote that it also happens with the TOSLINK module, but less often.

Because interference can be indirectly transferred also by SPDIF cable from a computer/player.
See my thread on similar issue http://twistedpearaudio.....aspx?g=posts&t=2157

I suspect the 4ch SPDIF input board as the receiver of EMI. Without all R3 resistors even
the TOSLINK without signal interferences with attached SPDIF coax cable.

I suggest you to connect only output from TOSLINK directly to Buffalo DAC (without 4ch input module)
and check if drops will stop.

Edited by user Friday, November 25, 2011 1:48:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#10 Posted : Friday, November 25, 2011 5:44:17 PM(UTC)
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Likely the thing that is being effected is the source, not the DAC. The ES9018 DAC does not tolerate input errors well at all. It will re-lock when one is encountered.

It could be the cable from the source that are picking up the EMI.

Also just ensure that your wiring is always short as possible and well dressed.
SwimDiver  
#11 Posted : Monday, November 28, 2011 7:24:20 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Russ.

Your thought that it may be a source component prompted to test powering the DAC and all sources from the inverter. Same results - it still loses lock when kitchen lights are switched. I think this reconfirms that whatever is happening, the EMI being picked up is through the air, not the mains.

In his post titled "4-Channel S/PDIF Input - interference between inputs / ground / locking issues", Miero wrote "I've found that unconnected input with R2 is interfering other inputs ... As a workaround I've connected/shorted the "+" and "-" terminals of that input. The SPDIF lock is now stable even on 192kHz." I too have an unconnected input. Could the unconnected input act as an antenna? Should I try shorting it out?


Russ White  
#12 Posted : Monday, November 28, 2011 9:12:17 PM(UTC)
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No, the SPDIF input should be just fine as long as you have all the termination resistors in place. The SPDIF cable itself however may be picking up the EMI. Each unused input is already terminated to GND by resistors(make sure you install all of them), there should be no issues there. You may just need to make sure your DAC is adequately shielded from EMI. Also pay careful attention to your wiring. Twist pairs wherever possible and make sure your case is grounded.
miero  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:24:22 AM(UTC)
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(partially off-topic)

What about the oscillations on Trident regulators I've measured earlier ...
http://twistedpearaudio.....aspx?g=posts&t=2127

If they were real, could they interfere with SPIDF input board?

I've grounded case, all connectors are isolated and the signal GND is connected
to earth GND at one place - from the both GND terminals of LCDPS.

Edited by user Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:24:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

needsp  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:03:06 AM(UTC)
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Hi

Does your source component have a pulse transformer on its S/PDIF output? The input S/PDIF board you're using also has transformers on its inputs, and so the digital interconnect cable is carrying a floating differential signal. The cable is undoubtedly made of 75R impedance coax, and will be suceptible to rf (and hum- as I've experienced) pickup- which might be the cause of your problem. The solution is to remove one of the transformers, or to use a 75R impedance (screened) twisted pair. A sort of 75R version of the 110R AES/EBU standard....

Paul


Russ White  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:04:41 AM(UTC)
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miero wrote:
(partially off-topic)

What about the oscillations on Trident regulators I've measured earlier ...
http://twistedpearaudio.....aspx?g=posts&t=2127

If they were real, could they interfere with SPIDF input board?

I've grounded case, all connectors are isolated and the signal GND is connected
to earth GND at one place - from the both GND terminals of LCDPS.


Way too much speculation. :)

But the answer is no - these thing would not be related. For one the SPDIF receiver is powered directly by VD, not a Trident. For another this is not a problem for everyone. :)

The issue here is EMI from a switched mains circuit finding its way into the DAC.

Edited by user Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:07:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:08:54 AM(UTC)
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Is there any mains powered amplifier on anything else connected to the DAC during your test? Or just the DAC and the source?

Edited by user Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:10:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:11:20 AM(UTC)
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One thing I have seen people do is connect the - input and GND together for consumer SPDIF on the receiver side. You might want to give that a try as well.
SwimDiver  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:27:20 PM(UTC)
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Russ White wrote:
Is there any mains powered amplifier on anything else connected to the DAC during your test? Or just the DAC and the source?


Yes and no. I tried it with the amplifier connected and then with the amplifier disconnected from the DAC (watching the lock light). In both cases, I can make the DAC lose lock by switching the kitchen lights.
SwimDiver  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:34:06 PM(UTC)
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Russ White wrote:
One thing I have seen people do is connect the - input and GND together for consumer SPDIF on the receiver side. You might want to give that a try as well.


Russ, I don't follow the part about "on the receiver side". Are you suggesting jumpers between the - input and the ground on S/PDIF board inputs?
Russ White  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:53:14 PM(UTC)
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Yes. :) The most likely case now seems to be that your picking up EMI (and it must be pretty serious) on the SPDIF cable itself.
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