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pinnocchio  
#1 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 9:56:57 PM(UTC)
pinnocchio

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I had a Dual Mono BII setup with consumer SPDIF and two Legato 3.1 in balanced mode for a couple of months without issue, however, I just recently hooked up the Volumite to be able to bypass my preamp.

Hookup is as per Integration guide with DVCC supplied by one of the DAC DVCC and regulator bypassed. No jumper changed from previous setup and controller on both boards removed.

The sound is working and volume can be adjusted without any issue but playing a few pieces that I have listened to many times in the past sounds a lot different... Like if the sound was monoral instead of stereo... Also, one of the phase was inverted and I had to switch my speaker terminal polarity...

One piece in Miles Davis Kind of Blue (Flamenco Sketches), the trumpet plays on the right side and then later on switches to the left side. Now when it is supposed to play on the left side, the trumpet stays centered but plays like if it was from a distance much further back in the stage and with some echo...

Any idea what it could be or what I forgot to change?

I have installed the Volumite so I can modify my preamp but right now it sounds like ...

Thanks
Do
glt  
#2 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 10:04:29 PM(UTC)
glt

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The address of the board? (left is address 0x90, right is address 0x92. Set with jumper)
pinnocchio  
#3 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 10:55:20 PM(UTC)
pinnocchio

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Hey glt!

You always amaze me man!

I don't know how I missed this one but you surely caught it!

All working beautifully now and sounding amazing!! I just wish I could motorize the volumite pot!

Thanks
Do
glt  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:58:14 AM(UTC)
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Thanks!
You can learn a lot by programming the chip :-)
pinnocchio  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:01:44 AM(UTC)
pinnocchio

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I used to program alot many years ago but lost interest in it...

Maybe its time to get back into it!

Ciao!
Do
pinnocchio  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:46:03 PM(UTC)
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I'm experimenting with a tube output I/V stage right now using this Dual Mono balanced setup.

For example, let's use the right channel BII which is used entirely for right output (Dual Mono). I need the phase, anti-phase and ground from this BII to transport them to the I/V stage.

What I'm not sure about is which side of the BII is the phase (left or right of this BII) which one is the anti-phase and I guess I only need one of the two grounds or better use both?

Would I use right output + for phase, left output - for anti-phase and their respective grounds?


Thanks
Do

Edited by user Thursday, September 1, 2011 12:49:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

LeonvB  
#7 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:07:57 AM(UTC)
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This is mentioned in the Advanced Features chapter of the BII guide. The table gives you the output specification for both the left and the right boards.
pinnocchio  
#8 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:00:55 AM(UTC)
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Hi LeonvB,

So just to recap and make sure I got it right when reading the doc...

On Left Mono DAC
Left Differential Output = use + for phase
Right Differential Output = use + for anti-phase

Thanks
Do
LeonvB  
#9 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 9:42:49 PM(UTC)
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Yes, but the same applies to the - also of course. And the right mono channel is a mirror of the left.
glt  
#10 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:33:21 PM(UTC)
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p. 28 of Leon's BIII manual says it very well:

"In dual mono mode the channel on the DAC which is opposite of the selected channel carries the same
analog signal but in anti-phase as shown in the table below. This allows the use of the IVY III or Legato
3.1 as a single differential (balanced) mono channel."

Left mono board:

left channel (not opposite the selected channel) = in phase
right channel (opposite selected channel) = anti-phase

right mono board:

left channel (opposite the selected channel) = anti-phase
right channel (not opposite selected channel) = in-phase
pinnocchio  
#11 Posted : Friday, September 2, 2011 5:14:43 AM(UTC)
pinnocchio

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Yes I saw the docs but I'm puzzled...

What I was wondering was should I use the + on each side or the - on each side of the same board

In stereo mode you have left + gnd - and the same on the right channel but in dual mono I do understand it is the opposite side of the board that carries the inverse phase, it's just to know if I take the + of both sides or the - . or + on the phase and - on the anti-phase.

Please see picture
BII IV out

Thanks
Do



glt  
#12 Posted : Friday, September 2, 2011 8:28:32 AM(UTC)
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It depends on whether you use one output board or two output boards:

With two output boards you connect + to + and - to -
With one output board you sum the signals first (+ to - and - to +) and then connect to the output stage

The flipping of phase in the dac chip was done for those who didn't want to think about phase. But once you think a little bit about phase, then it gets confusing :-)

Edited by user Friday, September 2, 2011 8:30:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#13 Posted : Friday, September 2, 2011 9:00:02 PM(UTC)
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No, flipping the phase was not done for those who don't want to think about phase, It was done because it makes practical sense if you want to get the best DNR possible. :) That is something people should definitely think about!

Sure it might seem daunting at first, until you are capable of thinking it through. :)

It actually not very confusing you just need to understand what and why. :)

In dual mono mode Both DACs output precisely the same signal just with one side phase flipped(Which is exactly how the Wolfson and TI chips do dual mono BTW, so its not a new concept) , if you want you can sum the current of the two sides by joining left + to right - and right + to left -.

Edited by user Friday, September 2, 2011 9:13:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

pinnocchio  
#14 Posted : Friday, September 2, 2011 10:28:09 PM(UTC)
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This is really not getting to my head for some reasons...

I guess I will need a drawing of some kind...

My I/V stages are stereo tube I/Vs (I have two of them, just like my Legato 3.1. The only thing is that Legato is a no brainer to install...

On each Tube I/Vs I've got

signal in left + gnd
signal in right + gnd
signal out left + gnd
signal out right + gnd

and I've got two BIIs in dual mono that I'm totally lost on how to hook it up. I'm really trying to understand but a drawing is the only thing that will save me right now...

If you don't mind... please... Pray A couple of posts up I added two BIIs side by side if you could draw on it and post it back

Here's my tube I/V board picture
Tube I/V

Again, thanks for all your support! I will understand very fast once I see the drawing
Do

BTW, Russ, I'm not replacing my Legato 3.1 as they sound AMAZING! I will just put in a couple of latching relays to switch between the tube and the SS I/Vs
Russ White  
#15 Posted : Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:46:49 AM(UTC)
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Ok so lets start with some definitions:

OSR = output stage for balanced right output
OSL = output stage for balanced left output

Choose which input on each output stage you want to be +(normal phase) and which will be -(inverted phase). They are marked on each output stage board as "dac input left" and "dac input right", for this example I will assume you use "dac input left" for in+ and "dac input right" for in- on each board. From now on I will refer to those an "in+" and "in-" respectively.

For the left channel configured Buf 2 you will wire DAC outputs to output stage inputs like this:
Left + and Right - (both joined in parallel)to OSL in+
Left - and Right + (both joined in parallel)to OSL in-

For the right channel configured Buf 2 you will wire like this
Right + and Left - (both joined in parallel)to OSR in+
Right - and Left + (both joined in parallel)to OSR in-

Of course you should connect GND to each output stage input GND as well.

Your situation is different from IVY-III and Legato 3.1 (and the apps for TI and Wolfson) because the signals are not run through a differential amp (which helps with DNR by canceling common mode signals).

I truly hope that helps. If you still have questions its ok, ask away.

Edited by user Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:53:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

pinnocchio  
#16 Posted : Saturday, September 3, 2011 12:24:51 PM(UTC)
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YEAH! YEAH!!! I got it! Applause

Thank you all for the help and especially to Mr. Russ who made me understand.

Thanks
Do
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