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Brian Donegan  
#1 Posted : Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:45:09 PM(UTC)
Brian Donegan

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Announcing the Sympatico, the successor to the Twisted X Overture, now distilled down to a simple, powerful, high-performance module.

UserPostedImage


Like the TXO, the Sympatico uses a Texas Instruments THS4131 fully symmetric op-amp for voltage gain, and a National Semiconductor amplifier chip in a nested feedback loop for additional voltage gain and current drive. Rather than three separate modules and two LM3886 amplifiers of the TXO, the Sympatico is a single small module per channel with one LM4780 dual amplifier chip in a balanced, bridged configuration. Some other design elements of the Sympatico include:

-> Fully symmetric, balanced operation
-> Ultra-low noise floor (perfect for high efficiency loudspeakers)
-> 100+ Watts/Channel into 8-ohm loads (conservative)
-> Precision SMD passive components for ultra-short feedback loops (0.5% thin film resistors)
-> Instrumentation front-end (LM4562) for high input impedance and easy interfacing with single-ended gear (balanced inputs recommended for best performance)
-> Single user-selectable gain control resistor (through hole)
-> Through-hole supply capacitors for easy tweaking
-> On-board discrete shunt voltage regulators for lower voltage stages
-> Multi-option power and signal connectors (faston, terminal block, direct wire)
-> Small form-factor (3" x 4")
-> On board power supply for easy installation

We will be ordering the first prototypes soon, and will be posting progress reports as we have them.



Edited by user Friday, May 30, 2008 6:25:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

akione  
#2 Posted : Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:03:23 PM(UTC)
akione

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Fantastic, Brian !

Just what I've been waiting for ........ :)

I'm currently planning a 4780-based amp, so this is perfect.

....... but the heatsink will be BIG with it bridged .........

Edited by user Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:40:59 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#3 Posted : Friday, May 23, 2008 5:46:27 AM(UTC)
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Hi Akione,

We have always been very pleased with the TXO-2. Being fully symmetric it seems completely immune to hum and common mode noise in general. On my listening room amp you can hear no hiss with your ear to the tweeter, none. Try that with an ordinary chip amp. :) Also because of the fully symmetric nature, power supply ripple rejection is incredibly allowing for the use of simple inexpensive unregulated power supply.

While the Sympatico will need a decent sized heat sink if you push it hard, for normal use I have found a simple 4" x 5.5" x 1.25" heat sink was just fine, just as it is for the TXO-2.

Cheers!
Russ

Edited by user Friday, May 23, 2008 6:55:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

akione  
#4 Posted : Friday, May 23, 2008 10:15:40 AM(UTC)
akione

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Cheers, Russ :)

I worked through the formula on the data sheet, earlier, and it wasn't as bad as I expected.

..... as long as you keep the output reasonable, say ~100W, it should be perfectly manageable.

Thanks Again.

biellis  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:14:16 AM(UTC)
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Sweet,
I don't need any new amps, but I want to build one anyway. My nephew needs a rig, I may build him an integrated, what is in works for a preamp for this baby.

Bill
Russ White  
#6 Posted : Friday, May 30, 2008 4:40:56 PM(UTC)
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Hi Folks,

The Sympatico has been taking a better defined shape.

I changed the image to reflect the design changes.:)

Some notable changes:

- Integrated very low noise low impedance discrete shunt regulators for the low voltage chips which simulates better than -142db PSRR and about 17 milliohms output impedance. :)
- On board power supply so the whole thing is self contained.

The key change is the shunt regulator. The THS4131 is the heart of the amp. With an ultra clean low impedance power supply it will be able to deliver even better results than the TXO-2 does.

Cheers!
Russ

Edited by user Friday, May 30, 2008 4:47:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#7 Posted : Friday, May 30, 2008 6:29:56 PM(UTC)
Russ White

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biellis wrote:
Sweet,
I don't need any new amps, but I want to build one anyway. My nephew needs a rig, I may build him an integrated, what is in works for a preamp for this baby.

Bill


Hi Bill,

Just about any preamp will work.

The input impedance is 100K

And you can do SE or balanced inputs.

Joshua Tree would be a solid choice.

Cheers!
Russ
glt  
#8 Posted : Friday, May 30, 2008 9:57:49 PM(UTC)
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Very nice module. For multi-driver application, can the instrumentation opamp be configured as low pass or high pass? (for example by adding some pads for extra caps/resistors?)
akione  
#9 Posted : Friday, May 30, 2008 11:18:24 PM(UTC)
akione

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Some nice improvements, there, Russ, but ........


....... I was planning a case with the top as heatsink, a la A1 (actually from my old A1 Shhh ),

but it's only 3 inches high ....... Boo hoo!

Ah well, I'll think of something else ........ Think

[ Perhaps you could perforate the board, so the p/s section could be separated. Whistle ]
chatziva  
#10 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:15:07 AM(UTC)
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Russ

I agree with Akione I think it should be better to keep the PS separate for enclosure layout flexibility

the regulators can stay in the the module

either way EXCELLENT WORK ! you guys have done a great design

simple and obvious in retrospective but nobody has ever done something similar

I am looking forward to getting my hands on this beauty

Cheers

EVan
chatziva  
#11 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:22:38 AM(UTC)
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by the way i love the new multi-option connectors !

so the sympatico will be scalable to 200W or 400W right?
Russ White  
#12 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 6:31:17 AM(UTC)
Russ White

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akione wrote:
Some nice improvements, there, Russ, but ........


....... I was planning a case with the top as heatsink, a la A1 (actually from my old A1 Shhh ),

but it's only 3 inches high ....... Boo hoo!

Ah well, I'll think of something else ........ Think

[ Perhaps you could perforate the board, so the p/s section could be separated. Whistle ]


There is no good way to perforate the board without forcing the use of jumpers.

What I may do at some point is do another amp only board.

The reason I want it all together is to get the lowest possible parasitic characteristics once the current is DC.

The shorter the paths the better the result will be.

It should be quite easy to find a case it will fit in. :)

In a pinch you could cut off the section below the big cap pads, that would shave off about 1.25 inches. Then just use your own PS.

Cheers!
Russ

Edited by user Saturday, May 31, 2008 6:35:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#13 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 6:33:16 AM(UTC)
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chatziva wrote:
by the way i love the new multi-option connectors !

so the sympatico will be scalable to 200W or 400W right?


Thanks.

I can't say yet. It will have to be tested first.

I am quite confident it will do 100-150W with any problem. It not so much designed for high power as ultra clean low distortion power.

Cheers!
Russ
Russ White  
#14 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 6:51:54 AM(UTC)
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glt wrote:
Very nice module. For multi-driver application, can the instrumentation opamp be configured as low pass or high pass? (for example by adding some pads for extra caps/resistors?)


Thanks.

Not without taking up a lot more space. It would probably be better to use a separate crossover. Even if I added x-over comps the best you could do would be 1st order(at least that I can think of at this hour of the morning, no coffee yet). And your probably going to want a steeper filter than that. I would have to add one or more op-amps to allow for 2nd/4th order.

My goal is really to make the amp to one thing really well. Reproduce clean accurate music.

Cheers!
Russ

mlw  
#15 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 1:47:15 PM(UTC)
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Excellent. I have been waiting to see what this would be. How about some pics? What would you recommend for transformer for 4 ohm load?
Russ White  
#16 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 3:57:21 PM(UTC)
Russ White

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mlw wrote:
Excellent. I have been waiting to see what this would be. How about some pics? What would you recommend for transformer for 4 ohm load?


I would say between 300 and 500VA for a mono channel would be great. It just depends on how hard you think you will be pushing the amp.

For a stereo configuration I would definitely not go lower than 400VA. 650 to 1K VA would be even better.

Cheers!
Russ

Edited by user Saturday, May 31, 2008 3:57:52 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#17 Posted : Saturday, May 31, 2008 4:31:39 PM(UTC)
Russ White

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Oh I forgot to state voltage. I would recommand 48V center tapped or dual 24V secondaries (which will be connected to the amp as it were center tapped).

You could go a volt or two higher, and it would probably actually work fine down to say 36VCT.

Cheers!
Russ
chatziva  
#18 Posted : Monday, June 2, 2008 1:50:41 PM(UTC)
chatziva

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Russ,

Is the bridge rectifier going to be better than a set of 4 discrete diodes like MUR860 ?

Or it doesn't really matter because of the discrete regulators?

I was also thinking it would be nice to put some pads in place to optionally allow for caps in parallel with the bridge for cleaning the switching noise.

From my little experience i think they do improve clarity

I guarantee you this project is going to be veeeery big. I can see everybody ditching their lm3886 modules to their relatives for this little beast. i know i will do !

Cheers!
Evan

Edited by user Monday, June 2, 2008 2:07:32 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Russ White  
#19 Posted : Monday, June 2, 2008 2:07:03 PM(UTC)
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Hi Evan,

I have been going back and forth between discrete diodes(with or without caps) and the bridge.

If there is enough demand I will go ahead and do the discrete diodes. What I don't want to do is a layout that supports both(either actually) as it makes for a icky looking routing situation.

Cheers!
Russ
chatziva  
#20 Posted : Monday, June 2, 2008 2:17:43 PM(UTC)
chatziva

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Wow speedy reply!

It is going to be tricky indeed trying to implement both i agree.

I think what I am trying to say is that as you know better than me PS can make or break an amp.

So arguably I would prefer to see a top notch PS for this amp, i think it would be worth the extra cost.

Maybe it would be a good case for comparison now at the prototyping stage.

Thanks
Evan

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